The Intermediate Conundrum

[AustinD]

So you did your 5 reps, you ate good food, and you slept like a baby. Gains were great for several months, and then the lifts became bone-shaking, brain-shattering grinds for survival. What do I do now, the trainee asks.

Endless searching for the perfect routine to jump to next begins. If a beginner LP could produce such great results, surely there must be a routine that you can switch to for more amazing gains. You try 5/3/1, bodybuilding splits, PPL, Texas Method, Cube Method, GZCL, and the list goes on. You're left on the other end with minimal progress and confusion. Where is the secret routine hidden?

Well, there is no secret. You've simply hit a plateau and, no matter what you do, your progress henceforth will be at the pace of a snail compared to your quick LP gains. Just continue to train consistently, eat well, and sleep; do it because you enjoy it or because you know it's good for you. Gains in strength and mass will come so slowly that you'd have to avoid a mirror for 2 years to notice anything significant.

[eternalmediate]

I think this reads overly pessimistically, even though I know you're writing to create realistic expectation; it depends what you're defining as an intermediate. I think your second and third year can still be open season to dramatic gains, though obviously it's on a sliding scale compared to those first six months.

After that, gains do slow and it becomes largely a matter of consistency in the core tenants over long periods; but I'll never think about my next training block as something relatively insignificant in the grand scheme because I'm a big believer in the nocebo effect.

[victrhugochavez]

I just keep re-running a minor variation of an old program because it was the first thing I found that worked after my noob gains dried up. Both times I've tried anything completely different I've seen a stall. So basically I found the perfect program back in 2013 and I'll sell it to y'all for only $19.99.

[Hanley]

You've simply hit a plateau and, no matter what you do, your progress henceforth will be at the pace of a snail

I put something like 30 pounds on my lifetime e1rm bench press in one month this past Spring.

No drugs, 40 years old, well past "intermediate".

Sometimes shit works out.

[Toxguy]

Yeah I think you can certainly make some very good gains post LP. It may take some time to figure out how you best respond--as people typically have different goals post LP (losing weight, getting jacked, competing in PL, different responders), etc but you can certainly make very good gains.

[jwilson625]

I made faster bench gains while recomping on a 4-day split setup than I did while bulking 1lb/wk+ on a TM/HLM hybrid ¯\_(ツ)_/¯



Edit: These averages are from sets of 5 or less at RPE7 or greater

[Chebass88]

The "intermediate" phase of training is a lot of fun. You get to find out what works and what doesn't work, try new lifts (and make great progress on them), and pursue your own goals, without limitations by people trying to peddle programs or coaching services.

[Skid]

Seems like most people make little if any gains beyond their initial linear progression, at least as far as I can tell from reading many of the logs. And that's ok too, as most people don't really need to get much stronger than that unless they want to compete.

[jake]

Seems like most people make little if any gains beyond their initial linear progression, at least as far as I can tell from reading many of the logs. And that's ok too, as most people don't really need to get much stronger than that unless they want to compete.

I think you're correct that it's ok to run out a novice routine and be cool with those gains.

However, this thread makes me wonder whether quick novice gains have any value for those interested in long term development, or rather if they actually are a net negative, particularly as this relates to expectations of improvement. Novice routines certainly seem to inflate those expectations (did for me at least) which probably contributes to the cycle OP described that many of us are familiar with.

[cwd]

Seems like most people make little if any gains beyond their initial linear progression, at least as far as I can tell from reading many of the logs.

Novice routines certainly seem to inflate those expectations (did for me at least) which probably contributes to the cycle OP described that many of us are familiar with.

Yep, I spent 4 years re-running novice programs and hurting myself. Lowering my expectations (accepting very slow growth) was a necessary part of escaping that trap.

I've make a *lot* of gains post-novice, stayed healthy doing it, and gotten lean. It's slow, but so very worth it.

Novice: 9 weeks to benching 140 5x3 at RPE 10, with aching joints, and pudgy.
Intermediate: 18 months to benching 205 x1 @8, healthy, and lean.

[JonA]

The "intermediate" phase of training is a lot of fun. You get to find out what works and what doesn't work, try new lifts (and make great progress on them), and pursue your own goals, without limitations by people trying to peddle programs or coaching services.

Yes to every thing here.

[GeorgeC]

There are so many confounding factors that, while intermediate progress will almost always be slower than the novice phase, most people were relatively more dialed in during their brief LP phase than during the much longer time following it.

Programming definitely matters and I've been stuck from cycles of yo-yo programming, but things outside the gym will affect rates of progress even on the most "optimal" programming and I think most of us simply cannot keep stress low, sleep regular, and diet dialed in all the time, which is why what we really tend to see is phases of decent progress followed by phases of stagnation instead of a steady crawl.

[Chebass88]

There are so many confounding factors that, while intermediate progress will almost always be slower than the novice phase, most people were relatively more dialed in during their brief LP phase than during the much longer time following it.

Programming definitely matters and I've been stuck from cycles of yo-yo programming, but things outside the gym will affect rates of progress even on the most "optimal" programming and I think most of us simply cannot keep stress low, sleep regular, and diet dialed in all the time, which is why what we really tend to see is phases of decent progress followed by phases of stagnation instead of a steady crawl.

I think this is mostly due to the formality of the program. The exercises, weights, increases, sets & reps, frequency, diet, rest times, etc. are all set. It takes a LOT of effort to systematically determine how all of these variables can be manipulated together to produce strength gains. Much of that effort can be saved by using a coach, as a coach ostensibly knows how these things work together, saving the lifter a massive headache and amount of wheel-spinning.

Also, it is worth noting symptoms of stagnation and changing something prior to stagnation.

[Murelli]

What if I told you...

That many of the people who "don't make much post novice gains" are actually trying to shed that pile of unnecessary fat they've added to their frames during a DTFP StStLP? (It me!)

[Hanley]

What if I told you...

That many of the people who "don't make much post novice gains" are actually trying to shed that pile of unnecessary fat they've added to their frames during a DTFP StStLP? (It me!)

Yeah, good point. If you start at 15-20% and end up over 25%, you've kinda fucked yourself and will have to do some damage control.

[Monoides]

Seems like most people make little if any gains beyond their initial linear progression, at least as far as I can tell from reading many of the logs. And that's ok too, as most people don't really need to get much stronger than that unless they want to compete.

I think you're correct that it's ok to run out a novice routine and be cool with those gains.

However, this thread makes me wonder whether quick novice gains have any value for those interested in long term development, or rather if they actually are a net negative, particularly as this relates to expectations of improvement. Novice routines certainly seem to inflate those expectations (did for me at least) which probably contributes to the cycle OP described that many of us are familiar with.

I'd say they probably don't matter a whole lot. If you wanna be the very best like no-one ever was and you manage to get, say, a 700 pound squat after a few years of training, does it really matter how long it took you to get to 315?

They certainly seem to have been a net negative for people here, but that seems to be more of an application thing. Every novice program should basically come with a giant disclaimer reading 'IF IT STOPS WORKING AFTER 8 WEEKS + IT MEANS YOU DID IT RIGHT, JUST MOVE ON ALREADY.'

[cwd]

What if I told you...

That many of the people who "don't make much post novice gains" are actually trying to shed that pile of unnecessary fat they've added to their frames during a DTFP StStLP? (It me!)

Yeah, good point. If you start at 15-20% and end up over 25%, you've kinda fucked yourself and will have to do some damage control.

Every novice program should basically come with a giant disclaimer reading 'IF IT STOPS WORKING AFTER 8 WEEKS + IT MEANS YOU DID IT RIGHT, JUST MOVE ON ALREADY.'

Spammed these into the "training forum quotes" thread. They belong as bright red stickers on the cover of the Starting Strength book.

[Murelli]

Seems like most people make little if any gains beyond their initial linear progression, at least as far as I can tell from reading many of the logs. And that's ok too, as most people don't really need to get much stronger than that unless they want to compete.

I think you're correct that it's ok to run out a novice routine and be cool with those gains.

However, this thread makes me wonder whether quick novice gains have any value for those interested in long term development, or rather if they actually are a net negative, particularly as this relates to expectations of improvement. Novice routines certainly seem to inflate those expectations (did for me at least) which probably contributes to the cycle OP described that many of us are familiar with.

I'd say they probably don't matter a whole lot. If you wanna be the very best like no-one ever was and you manage to get, say, a 700 pound squat after a few years of training, does it really matter how long it took you to get to 315?

They certainly seem to have been a net negative for people here, but that seems to be more of an application thing. Every novice program should basically come with a giant disclaimer reading 'IF IT STOPS WORKING AFTER 8 WEEKS + IT MEANS YOU DID IT RIGHT, JUST MOVE ON ALREADY.'

I should have stopped at 100kg or 110 at max. No, I took my squat to 142,5 via eating and grinding and "light day" and "top set + back-offs". So really, there should be a body fat caveat there also.

[Les]

Seems like most people make little if any gains beyond their initial linear progression, at least as far as I can tell from reading many of the logs. And that's ok too, as most people don't really need to get much stronger than that unless they want to compete.

I probably didn't look at all the logs, but I saw people making slow and steady gains on more advanced programming. The ones that didn't seem to get as far kept re-running the same old stuff.

[FredM]

What if I told you...

That many of the people who "don't make much post novice gains" are actually trying to shed that pile of unnecessary fat they've added to their frames during a DTFP StStLP? (It me!)

Yeah, good point. If you start at 15-20% and end up over 25%, you've kinda fucked yourself and will have to do some damage control.

Yeah...

I’ve lost 30 lbs since my lp “ended” in April. And I’m still north of 15% bf.

I think it might have something to do with my lack of real progress since then.

But probably not. I’m probably just a pu**y with shit genetics destined to bench 1.2x bw the rest of my life.

Check back with me in 6 months @Skid. If you think I can’t add more to my bench and press while eating more than 190g carbs in a 3 month block than I did on 6 months of lp I’ve got a Hundo for you.