2-Week "Montana Method" Template

[Hanley]

@Hanley
Maybe I missed this somewhere, but is your new site up and running? Will it be possible to purchase your 4 day split template?

Not yet.

I'll have 2 paid coaching options and -- soon(ish) -- a selection of free program skeletons.

Longer term, I'd like to build an online programming tool that spits out semi-custom templates.

Basically, Patrick thought the commonly used tool for dosing cycle stress -- INOL ("intensity and number of lifts")-- was shit....so he came up with the "normalized fatigue metric".

I've found that the tool works quite well from 65-90%

I remember you said up to 95% before but I thought it was crazy to have a value of 400 for a 1@9 so I've just been capping it at 156 when I record anything 92% and above. What do you do for +90 then?

I think individual response is too variable to model (or at least I can't make sense of it). Hell, intra-individual response across different lifts varies so much at near-max intensities.

I think you simply have to use tailored individual rules for high intensity stuff (annoyingly, rules that will change over time...as I've mentioned elsewhere, I think previously emerged strategies have a shelf life of about 3 months).

[Rasmusb]

I'll have 2 paid coaching options and -- soon(ish) -- a selection of free program skeletons.

I will be keeping a close eye on this. Any chance of a shout out when you are ready with this?

Longer term, I'd like to build an online programming tool that spits out semi-custom templates.

This sounds dope. Although it seems like a daunting task (please finish above first).

[Hanley]

Any chance of a shout out when you are ready with this?

Yup.

[CeeKa]

Looking forward to those program skelingtons!


I've been running (and enjoying) the Montana Method for some weeks now, though not so consistently because of things...
A few questions have come up so far and I'd be interested in some Exodus opinions on them:

• Would I miss anything from a training perspective if I exclusevly did pull-ups for the density block and never rows? I like pull-ups much more, but could swap in some rows every now and then if they were beneficial.
• Why the short rest before the 4th bench rep on the week 1 strength day? Anything wrong with doing four unbroken reps as long as the weight doesn't get too heavy?
• What I like about MM is the lack of endless variations for each lift. I have never fully understood why variations (like tempo/paused/pin squats) are supposed to be superior to low intensity competition lifts as long as technique and boredom are no issues and fatigue results are the same. Why exactly do you prescribe CGBP and SGDL in this template nevertheless? (I like those two - just asking)

A few pages back you have noted some modifications based on feedback:

I'd knock the intensity down on power days. For week 1 I'd probably just do some singles with 85%. For week 2, Id probably top out at 87-90% (with a few extra bench reps at 85%)

To clarify:
Week 1 - Cut the 90 % squat and 92 % bench single. Add two or three squat and bench singles at 85%?
Week 2 - Cut the 92 % squat and 95 % bench single. Add two or three bench singles at 85 %? Maybe adjust the 90 % singles to 87% if things get heavy.

I'm bad at programming and like my templates spoon-fed. Sorry for that, I just don't want to make any mistakes that I can't identify myself.

[Hanley]

• Would I miss anything from a training perspective if I exclusevly did pull-ups for the density block and never rows? I like pull-ups much more, but could swap in some rows every now and then if they were beneficial.

Not much, but compare the movement of the shoulder blades in each movement. Rows = way more protraction and retraction. Vertical pulls = elevation /depression.

Does it really matter? IDK

[*]Why the short rest before the 4th bench rep on the week 1 strength day? Anything wrong with doing four unbroken reps as long as the weight doesn't get too heavy?

This is incredibly speculative: but I think in order for the error-detection benefit of "interleaving" of the TnG and Paused motor patterns, you should be pretty rested for the paused single. If you're not worried about the interleaving effect, don't worry about it. But feedback on interleaving has been quite positive.

Why exactly do you prescribe CGBP and SGDL in this template nevertheless? (I like those two - just asking)

CGBP: "Power Day" should really be called "Skill and Neurological Factors Day". These reps should be crisp and snappy, and they should work to refine things like 1) "neural drive" (which is vague-speak for two primary things: a) total number of Motor units recruited in the prime movers and b) rate-coding or twitch frequency) and a 2) synchronized recruitment. I think it's bad "sports practice" to follow the motor-program-refining work with a too-similar motor-program done for hypertrophy. I think the CGBP is different enough to not fuck up the neuro work.

SGDL: in the conventional deadlift, you can get away with horrible mechanics..you literally might not feel your cat-back flexion, Only upon video review do you realize your mechanics were a shitshow.

In contrast, the SGDL provides INSTANT and powerful feedback of of poor mechanics. If you can't get into proper extension...you can't pull (or at least you'll feel the awfulness). IOW -- the SGDL is the best "mechanics unfucking" pull I know of.

A few pages back you have noted some modifications based on feedback:

I'd knock the intensity down on power days. For week 1 I'd probably just do some singles with 85%. For week 2, Id probably top out at 87-90% (with a few extra bench reps at 85%)

To clarify:
Week 1 - Cut the 90 % squat and 92 % bench single. Add two or three squat and bench singles at 85%?
Week 2 - Cut the 92 % squat and 95 % bench single. Add two or three bench singles at 85 %? Maybe adjust the 90 % singles to 87% if things get heavy.

I'm bad at programming and like my templates spoon-fed. Sorry for that, I just don't want to make any mistakes that I can't identify myself.

Yup.

[CeeKa]

Thanks for the quick and detailed answer, Hanley. Much appreciated.

Not much, but compare the movement of the shoulder blades in each movement. Rows = way more protraction and retraction. Vertical pulls = elevation /depression.

Does it really matter? IDK

That's why I was a little concerned. I might just alternate both movements week to week or cycle to cycle.

This is incredibly speculative: but I think in order for the error-detection benefit of "interleaving" of the TnG and Paused motor patterns, you should be pretty rested for the paused single. If you're not worried about the interleaving effect, don't worry about it. But feedback on interleaving has been quite positive.

I haven't read much about the interleaving effect, yet. But I'll take a look at it.

CGBP: "Power Day" should really be called "Skill and Neurological Factors Day". These reps should be crisp and snappy, and they should work to refine things like 1) "neural drive" (which is vague-speak for two primary things: a) total number of Motor units recruited in the prime movers and b) rate-coding or twitch frequency) and a 2) synchronized recruitment. I think it's bad "sports practice" to follow the motor-program-refining work with a too-similar motor-program done for hypertrophy. I think the CGBP is different enough to not fuck up the neuro work.

SGDL: in the conventional deadlift, you can get away with horrible mechanics..you literally might not feel your cat-back flexion, Only upon video review do you realize your mechanics were a shitshow.

In contrast, the SGDL provides INSTANT and powerful feedback of of poor mechanics. If you can't get into proper extension...you can't pull (or at least you'll feel the awfulness). IOW -- the SGDL is the best "mechanics unfucking" pull I know of.

This seems plausible.

[torkins]

Looking forward to those program skelingtons!

?! Is this a Hollywood Handbook reference?

[CeeKa]

Looking forward to those program skelingtons!

?! Is this a Hollywood Handbook reference?

Just a spooky meme, to be honest. But I can see the reference.

[Allentown]

• Would I miss anything from a training perspective if I exclusevly did pull-ups for the density block and never rows? I like pull-ups much more, but could swap in some rows every now and then if they were beneficial.

Not much, but compare the movement of the shoulder blades in each movement. Rows = way more protraction and retraction. Vertical pulls = elevation /depression.

Does it really matter? IDK

You could also do 100 barbell rows with 135. Not many people can do 100 pull-ups. Or more reps at a slow, controlled tempo with rows than pull-ups. Also more lower back stress with rows.

[CamLeslie]

SGDL: in the conventional deadlift, you can get away with horrible mechanics..you literally might not feel your cat-back flexion, Only upon video review do you realize your mechanics were a shitshow.

In contrast, the SGDL provides INSTANT and powerful feedback of of poor mechanics. If you can't get into proper extension...you can't pull (or at least you'll feel the awfulness). IOW -- the SGDL is the best "mechanics unfucking" pull I know of.

This seems plausible.

This is where I started with Hanley.



This is where I'm at today.



Pretty much entirely from doing SGDL. Taught me how to cue or something.

[OrderInChaos]

Pretty much entirely from doing SGDL. Taught me how to cue or something.

Quick question: When you started doing SGDL, how much of a learning curve did you have and how low were your loads in relation to normal DL? Just wondering if you took a short dive as you learned the lift and if it had much of a negative impact in relation to the positives of learning tighter extension and all that.

[CamLeslie]

Quick question: When you started doing SGDL, how much of a learning curve did you have and how low were your loads in relation to normal DL? Just wondering if you took a short dive as you learned the lift and if it had much of a negative impact in relation to the positives of learning tighter extension and all that.

I found the SGDL to be pretty intuitive. Like Hanley was saying... here...

In contrast, the SGDL provides INSTANT and powerful feedback of of poor mechanics. If you can't get into proper extension...you can't pull (or at least you'll feel the awfulness). IOW -- the SGDL is the best "mechanics unfucking" pull I know of.

I started around 245x5 on the SGDL (see video), with a e1rm DL of 430ish. That was probably 3-4 months ago. I competed recently so there wasn't much SGDL for awhile. Last month I have been doing them once a week and progressing linearly. Did my worksets at 335 for 4x4 yesterday on the SGDL.

First time I ever did them... Lol at the guy in the background, first time I noticed that.



Umm about the short dive thing. I kind of have a different, long term outlook on training where if you can add another arrow to your training quiver it could be better than whatever short term gains you might get from just doing the big three over and over. I've been lifting for 8 years now, so yeah, I imagine my DL might have gone down since I haven't been doing it as much, but the gains from a new movement in my mind outweigh that. Especially since my form has improved, I bet when I return to training for a competition that it will pay dividends.

Make sense?

[jwilson625]

Pretty much entirely from doing SGDL. Taught me how to cue or something.

Quick question: When you started doing SGDL, how much of a learning curve did you have and how low were your loads in relation to normal DL? Just wondering if you took a short dive as you learned the lift and if it had much of a negative impact in relation to the positives of learning tighter extension and all that.

I did a little bit of SGDL with SSOC and got the hang of it pretty much immediately. e1rms (w/ belt+straps) were around 90% of conventional DL w/ belt by my second session of doing SGDLs. Unfortunately I didn't do them frequently enough or long enough to be able to say whether they had an effect on my conventional pulling.

[OrderInChaos]

...Make sense?

Totally! Thanks for the explanation. I think my difficulty with them was implementing them with 1) a weak-ass conventional to start and...

I did a little bit of SGDL with SSOC and got the hang of it pretty much immediately. e1rms (w/ belt+straps) were around 90% of conventional DL w/ belt by my second session of doing SGDLs. Unfortunately I didn't do them frequently enough or long enough to be able to say whether they had an effect on my conventional pulling.

2) ^ doing them without straps. Insufficient reading around here on my part first; I experienced the definite increase in feedback on extension, but was struggling with hook or double over at that width. I'll have to try them again soon, and maybe get some straps!

[jwilson625]

...Make sense?

Totally! Thanks for the explanation. I think my difficulty with them was implementing them with 1) a weak-ass conventional to start and...

I did a little bit of SGDL with SSOC and got the hang of it pretty much immediately. e1rms (w/ belt+straps) were around 90% of conventional DL w/ belt by my second session of doing SGDLs. Unfortunately I didn't do them frequently enough or long enough to be able to say whether they had an effect on my conventional pulling.

2) ^ doing them without straps. Insufficient reading around here on my part first; I experienced the definite increase in feedback on extension, but was struggling with hook or double over at that width. I'll have to try them again soon, and maybe get some straps!

Yeah straps are pretty much a must for SGDLs if you're working at any significant intensity. For Week 1 of MM (55% of conventional e1rm) I got away with DOH and no straps - it wasn't until the last couple reps of the last set that grip started to get tough. I don't think I'll be able to do that for much longer though, if at all.

[benbk]

Hey everyone!

I recently found out about a local Powerlifting club near where I live, and they’re holding a small, informal meet on December 1st. I decided to join – and compete – and to prepare, I went looking for a program with a high(er) frequency on the main Powerlifting lifts without going full-on Sheiko or 5x/UHF and blowing my shoulders.

I spent most of last year in bit of a broad off-season mode, focusing on higher-rep Front Squats instead of low-rep Back Squats, so a lot of what I'm looking for is just getting back into the groove and making my movements more efficient for the competition. Someone on Reddit suggested I have a look at the Montana Method here, and the outline looks *almost exactly like what I’m looking for, including the shorter cycle duration.

That said, I had a few questions about adapting the program for my weak points and/or goals, and so I decided to sign up for these forums and ask in person.

As I'm still trying to get my technique back on track, I like to be able to take my time warming up and practicing Sumo Deadlifts.
Instead of pulling heavy after Squatting and Benching on _Power Day,_ I'd like to either use a separate day for Deadlifts or move Benching to a separate day (which would also give my shoulders a bit of a break after the first two days of Benching and Pressing). Knowing myself, I'd likely end up just trying to get through the rest of the session instead of giving it the proper attention. I attached a small overview for what a week might look like this way.

Additionally, as setting up for Sumo is giving me some trouble, I was thinking about replacing the SGDLs with lighter Sumo pulls with a pause just off the floor, as I've always found those very helpful.

Would love to get some opinions on these changes, or on how I might best approach this.

Cheers from Berlin,

Ben

[Hanley]

@benbk: those changes look good...should work fine

[benbk]

@Hanley

Fantastic, thank you for the quick response. Looking forward to trying it out.

[Sergio07]

@Hanley
Hi, I'm new to your program, would you recommend it for someone who just finished the LP?

[Hanley]

@Hanley
Hi, I'm new to your program, would you recommend it for someone who just finished the LP?

I think that could work fine. It requires you to be able to ballpark a "training max"/e1RM, though.

edit: I'd also knock the "power day" intensity back a little (cut ~3% off the top lifts).