2-Week "Montana Method" Template

[alek]

In my third cycle of trying to do the 2 week template as written, after taking the summer off to try focusing on running.
Squat and bench are going well, but deadlift Wednesdays are not going well. Basically I'm too tired for the third lift, especially if it's deadlift.

Did anybody prefer the previous setup of:

M-Hypertrophy squat and bench
T-Hypertrophy deadlift and press density
W-Power Squat and Bench
F- Strength Squat, Bench and Dead

I'm considering either trying this, or maybe trying a cycle or two with no deadlift top singles and see if that helps

I did for awhile, but I'd move the press density to a day other than before power bench. I saw some interference on bench that went away changing it around a bit.

[Skander]

In other phrasing, do the ideas behind specifically HPS have an easy translation to the Olympic lifts? WL programming practices writ large seem very distinct from the way powerlifters, strongmen, and even CF athletes approach strength; is it even "possible" for laymen to advance the fast lifts much once they've got form down, other than by massively increasing their DL in relation to the lifts?

Just an aside: I think in general DL doesn't do much for Olympic lifts based on personal experience.

Overall though the main distinction in my mind is basically between capacity (total strength) and efficiency (how much of that strength gets translated into kilos on the two lifts). At different times, changing those is a different level of difficulty- beginners with good strength background gain efficiency quickly, while once you reach high efficiency you need more strength. If you already have high capacity (500# squat) relative to snatch (80kg) you'll mostly benefit from a fuckton of Olympic work. Your squat 1RM might drop to 430# during that time, but until you're at higher efficiency it doesn't matter. Then you need to hit squats again, during which time your efficiency will drop a little bit, and so forth.

The programming to actually achieve this is the complicated part, and I'm not sure it has too much to do with the HPS methods, though there are similar needs- keep the ability to do high % lifts while also getting enough low % work to build form efficiency and not burn out, while keeping capacity as high as possible throughout. So there are probably superficial similarities not they are due to similar needs not similar underlying principals.

[thejosef]

Just an aside: I think in general DL doesn't do much for Olympic lifts based on personal experience.

But maybe the other way around? I pretty much stopped a regular heavy strength training routine (Back Squat, BP, DL) these past 3-4 months to focus on Olympic lifting and cardio. I randomly deadlifted about 3 weeks ago and it moved quite fast.. and easy. I don't think I've lost anything, and maybe actually gained some on DL... Crazy.

[damufunman]

Just an aside: I think in general DL doesn't do much for Olympic lifts based on personal experience.

But maybe the other way around? I pretty much stopped a regular heavy strength training routine (Back Squat, BP, DL) these past 3-4 months to focus on Olympic lifting and cardio. I randomly deadlifted about 3 weeks ago and it moved quite fast.. and easy. I don't think I've lost anything, and maybe actually gained some on DL... Crazy.

I've been wondering about this as well. WLer typically don't train heavy deadlifts (as far as I can tell), and yet most seem to be pretty good deadlifters for how little they train it.
@thejosef what is your clean vs. deadlift? You have something like a 50% ratio or closer to 65-70%? And what ranges have you been training cleans?

[thejosef]

Just an aside: I think in general DL doesn't do much for Olympic lifts based on personal experience.

But maybe the other way around? I pretty much stopped a regular heavy strength training routine (Back Squat, BP, DL) these past 3-4 months to focus on Olympic lifting and cardio. I randomly deadlifted about 3 weeks ago and it moved quite fast.. and easy. I don't think I've lost anything, and maybe actually gained some on DL... Crazy.

I've been wondering about this as well. WLer typically don't train heavy deadlifts (as far as I can tell), and yet most seem to be pretty good deadlifters for how little they train it.
@thejosef what is your clean vs. deadlift? You have something like a 50% ratio or closer to 65-70%? And what ranges have you been training cleans?

Looks like I'm around 60%. I'm 150 bodyweight.. My deadlift isn't super strong at 315, and I recently cleaned 185, but I still feel like a total Oly noob. I've always hated deadlift, so I don't feel quite as guilty for not training it if I can still be decent at it with mainly training Oly. I just usually work to a heavy set of 3, occasionally going for a heavy single. Sometimes, power cleans, other times, Cleans, C&J, or Snatch. Sooo not super structured right now. Lol.

[Skander]

Just an aside: I think in general DL doesn't do much for Olympic lifts based on personal experience.

But maybe the other way around? I pretty much stopped a regular heavy strength training routine (Back Squat, BP, DL) these past 3-4 months to focus on Olympic lifting and cardio. I randomly deadlifted about 3 weeks ago and it moved quite fast.. and easy. I don't think I've lost anything, and maybe actually gained some on DL... Crazy.

I've been wondering about this as well. WLer typically don't train heavy deadlifts (as far as I can tell), and yet most seem to be pretty good deadlifters for how little they train it.
@thejosef what is your clean vs. deadlift? You have something like a 50% ratio or closer to 65-70%? And what ranges have you been training cleans?

There's some truth to that but if you're talking elite WLers, they're just freaks. They don't train bench much either, but can bust out respectable numbers...

[KO]

I'm on my fourth cycle and everything is going fine, thank you @Hanley.

I've been moving my press up by 5lbs each cycle, but this last time went a little too slow for my liking (the single). Is the OHP supposed to progress, or is it kind of like "let's go along for the ride and if I hit a random PR, then great?"

I might just stay at the same weight for the next cycle, but I was just curious to see what folks have been experiencing. Btw, ty exodus strength, for existing!

[TheDuke]

I'm on my fourth cycle and everything is going fine, thank you @Hanley.

I've been moving my press up by 5lbs each cycle, but this last time went a little too slow for my liking (the single). Is the OHP supposed to progress, or is it kind of like "let's go along for the ride and if I hit a random PR, then great?"

I might just stay at the same weight for the next cycle, but I was just curious to see what folks have been experiencing. Btw, ty exodus strength, for existing!

You might extend it now to a 3 or 4 week cycle instead of 2.
Definitely be conservative with the weight on a hypertrophy and strength days - add more sets at first, before increasing weight.

[FredM]

I'm on my fourth cycle and everything is going fine, thank you @Hanley.

I've been moving my press up by 5lbs each cycle, but this last time went a little too slow for my liking (the single). Is the OHP supposed to progress, or is it kind of like "let's go along for the ride and if I hit a random PR, then great?"

I might just stay at the same weight for the next cycle, but I was just curious to see what folks have been experiencing. Btw, ty exodus strength, for existing!

It's a bench template...

I mean many of us were pleasantly surprised when our Press went up when it's mostly there as an afterthought/hypertrophy/ensure you don't get detrained in the Press -- but expecting consistent 2.5 lbs/wk on a lift you're doing for 20ish reps once/week is a tad greedy, no?

[Hanley]

I'm on my fourth cycle and everything is going fine, thank you Hanley.

I've been moving my press up by 5lbs each cycle, but this last time went a little too slow for my liking (the single). Is the OHP supposed to progress, or is it kind of like "let's go along for the ride and if I hit a random PR, then great?"

I might just stay at the same weight for the next cycle, but I was just curious to see what folks have been experiencing. Btw, ty exodus strength, for existing!

It's a bench template...

I mean many of us were pleasantly surprised when our Press went up when it's mostly there as an afterthought/hypertrophy/ensure you don't get detrained in the Press -- but expecting consistent 2.5 lbs/wk on a lift you're doing for 20ish reps once/week is a tad greedy, no?

Yeah, press is assistance in this template. Can you add a second press day?

Generally, I think alternating periods of pressing focus works better than attempting simultaneous gains, but if you wanted to add a second press day...I'd simply make it a bunch of doubles between ~80-87% (make some sort of pyramid scheme?)

[KO]

@TheDuke, @FredM, @Hanley, thank you for the suggestions. Yes, I understand this is Bench focused, it's actually going really well for me there. Not sure if I have time for another press session...what I might do for now is just keep doing the same thing and try for small PRs here and there based on feels.

[Wayne]

I'm on my fourth cycle and everything is going fine, thank you @Hanley.

I've been moving my press up by 5lbs each cycle, but this last time went a little too slow for my liking (the single). Is the OHP supposed to progress, or is it kind of like "let's go along for the ride and if I hit a random PR, then great?"

I might just stay at the same weight for the next cycle, but I was just curious to see what folks have been experiencing. Btw, ty exodus strength, for existing!

You might extend it now to a 3 or 4 week cycle instead of 2.
Definitely be conservative with the weight on a hypertrophy and strength days - add more sets at first, before increasing weight.

Hey dude, have you stretched this out to a 3/4 week cycle yourself? I’d be interested in how that looks as I’m needing to change up my routine from the 2 week one.

@Hanley - maybe a stupid question but I see you have mentioned cycling type 1/2 fibres in all sets. Do you have any useful posts/background material on this for someone new to it as it’s not something I’ve read about before? From this forum I pick up that we want to do sets either over 85% or take sets <85% to an RPE8/9 to do so. Presumably H day is the later, S day is the former in the MM template?

[Hanley]

@Hanley - maybe a stupid question but I see you have mentioned cycling type 1/2 fibres in all sets. Do you have any useful posts/background material on this for someone new to it as it’s not something I’ve read about before? From this forum I pick up that we want to do sets either over 85% or take sets <85% to an RPE8/9 to do so. Presumably H day is the later, S day is the former in the MM template?

Eh. Here's a quick summary of my thoughts

viewtopic.php?p=116712#p116712


Read a lot of Chris Beardsley

https://www.strengthandconditioningrese ... /articles/


I'd also recommend researching "physiology of muscle contraction".

And look up "henneman's size principle"

And then diving in to this model of recruitment (we don't have the technology to actually know what's going on at the MU level, so this phenomenological model is about as good as it gets for the time being):

https://journals.plos.org/ploscompbiol/ ... bi.1005581

[Wayne]

@Hanley - maybe a stupid question but I see you have mentioned cycling type 1/2 fibres in all sets. Do you have any useful posts/background material on this for someone new to it as it’s not something I’ve read about before? From this forum I pick up that we want to do sets either over 85% or take sets <85% to an RPE8/9 to do so. Presumably H day is the later, S day is the former in the MM template?

Eh. Here's a quick summary of my thoughts

viewtopic.php?p=116712#p116712


Read a lot of Chris Beardsley

https://www.strengthandconditioningrese ... /articles/


I'd also recommend researching "physiology of muscle contraction".

And look up "henneman's size principle"

And then diving in to this model of recruitment (we don't have the technology to actually know what's going on at the MU level, so this phenomenological model is about as good as it gets for the time being):

https://journals.plos.org/ploscompbiol/ ... bi.1005581

That’s great, thanks. I’m sure that lot will keep me busy getting up to speed!

[Hanley]

@Hanley - maybe a stupid question but I see you have mentioned cycling type 1/2 fibres in all sets. Do you have any useful posts/background material on this for someone new to it as it’s not something I’ve read about before? From this forum I pick up that we want to do sets either over 85% or take sets <85% to an RPE8/9 to do so. Presumably H day is the later, S day is the former in the MM template?

Eh. Here's a quick summary of my thoughts

viewtopic.php?p=116712#p116712


Read a lot of Chris Beardsley

https://www.strengthandconditioningrese ... /articles/


I'd also recommend researching "physiology of muscle contraction".

And look up "henneman's size principle"

And then diving in to this model of recruitment (we don't have the technology to actually know what's going on at the MU level, so this phenomenological model is about as good as it gets for the time being):

https://journals.plos.org/ploscompbiol/ ... bi.1005581

That’s great, thanks. I’m sure that lot will keep me busy getting up to speed!

There's also a YouTube channel called "2 minute neuroscience" that can help with background on motor neurons, neurotransmitter function at the neuro-muscular junction, and "neural drive".

None if it is very practical, but it's useful in piecing together a unified Meathead theory of lifting.

[TheDuke]

@Wayne I haven't had a chance yet since my training suffers lately, but basically once I start doing MM again, after few cycles I'm planning to do something like Zourdos HPS combined with some MM training principles.

Check this out
https://shreddedbyscience.com/dup-2/

So basically for a 3 week cycle it could look something like
H: 65% ~50 reps, 70% ~35 reps, 75% ~25 reps (week1, week2, week3)
P: x1 @ 88%, 90%, 92% for sq and dl, and x1 @90%, @92.5%, @95% for bp (-II-)
S: 15 reps @80%, 15 reps @82.5 %, 10-15 reps @85% (-II-)

Add some bro work + press density block, and a deload week every 2 or 3 cycles, depending how you feel.

[lehman906]

The conventional wisdom is that the deadlift beats you up more than anything else, but am I the only person who takes more punishment from squats? I feel like I could pull three times per week with intelligent programming and be fine, but squatting three times per week puts a hurtin on me. I have to do it because I have skinny weak legs, though, right?

Have you ever tried pulling three times per week or programmed it for anyone else @Hanley? I mean, besides your snatch grip and press-only program?

[Hanley]

The conventional wisdom is that the deadlift beats you up more than anything else, but am I the only person who takes more punishment from squats? I feel like I could pull three times per week with intelligent programming and be fine, but squatting three times per week puts a hurtin on me. I have to do it because I have skinny weak legs, though, right?

Have you ever tried pulling three times per week or programmed it for anyone else Hanley? I mean, besides your snatch grip and press-only program?

If you have a small torso: femur ratio, there's just no getting around squat suckage.

They're going to suck. I'm noceboing you, and I don't care. The torque doesn't care.

Week 1
M: sgdl volume
W: conv deads (idk, volume at 75%)
F: sgdl: topset of 4-5 reps @7-8 followed dropsets - 10% topset

Week 2
M: conv dead (12 reps 80%?)
W: deficits? More sgdl?
F: overload (reverse band or rack pulls for doubles?)

[MattimusMaximus]

If you have a small torso: femur ratio, there's just no getting around squat suckage.

yup, short torso/femur ratio right here... the squat suckage is real! I can't handle much squat volume or even deadlift volume for that matter but upper body I could go on for days. Weird!

[lehman906]

The conventional wisdom is that the deadlift beats you up more than anything else, but am I the only person who takes more punishment from squats? I feel like I could pull three times per week with intelligent programming and be fine, but squatting three times per week puts a hurtin on me. I have to do it because I have skinny weak legs, though, right?

Have you ever tried pulling three times per week or programmed it for anyone else Hanley? I mean, besides your snatch grip and press-only program?

If you have a small torso: femur ratio, there's just no getting around squat suckage.

They're going to suck. I'm noceboing you, and I don't care. The torque doesn't care.

Week 1
M: sgdl volume
W: conv deads (idk, volume at 75%)
F: sgdl: topset of 4-5 reps @7-8 followed dropsets - 10% topset

Week 2
M: conv dead (12 reps 80%?)
W: deficits? More sgdl?
F: overload (reverse band or rack pulls for doubles?)

So you wouldn’t do a true power day for deads with a single around 90%?

I like this. I still need stronger legs, but I could add HB, fronts, leg Press, and lunges as accessories.