First try at custom RPE program

[timelinex]

I did The Bridge in December, then went on vacation for 2 weeks and I am now just finishing doing a mini LP to get retrained. I've been cutting for a few weeks now and this program will be used for the rest of my cut.

I read Mike Israetel's book on programming and decided to have a go at it instead of using a cookie cutter template. I based some of the rep schemes and volume off The Bridge but applied the volume accumulation more based of Mike's books (EDIT: Meaning I am pushing hypertrophy by progressively overloading volume). I used RPE as the auto regulator and thats what the "@"s are. I have this set up as 4 weeks and a deload, but I think I would just keep going and not deload till I either can't add more weight to the main lifts or fail at adding more volume. (Whether thats by week 3 or 5).

I'll explain why I used some of the exercises I did:

Nose pin press: I'm going through some shoulder/arm pain which benching aggravates and OHP makes better. So I decided it might be best to focus on press instead of bench for a little bit. It is also why I increased the benching day volume but lowered intensity.

Sumo & RDL: I'm unable to effectively conventional with a good lumbar back extension. It's a combination of anthropometry and inflexibility. So as per some recommendations on the forum I am giving Sumo a try... I am doing RDL's because they should stretch out my inflexible hamstrings.



Let me know if you guys have any comments!

[timelinex]

I guess I should answer the questions posted in a different thread about programming:

Age:30
Sex: M
Height: 6ft
Weight: 202.8 LB (was 210 8 weeks ago)
Training history (training age, what have you tried?, PRs within last year): tested 1rm after novice LP 12 weeks ago sq:340 dl:425 Bench:280 Press:175
Relevant injury history: left shoulder and upper arms all messed up from LBBS and possibly benching
Schedule constraints:3 days per week, preferably under 2hr each day

[PatrickDB]

A few questions, not because I know anything, but just to start a conversation:

Why program "Nose OHP"? Why not just press?

Why are you front squatting 10s? Seems insane.

Why do squats go HML instead of HLM?

Why are you using high bar paused squats? Assuming low bar is your "competition lift," this is highly non-specific. What's wrong with regular 2 count pause squats (low bar)?

Why not deadlift on Friday instead of Wednesday to give you time to recover from the heavy squat session?

WTF is "volume accumulation"? I'm assuming this is some two-factor stress model thing. If so, why would you intentionally accumulate lasting fatigue?

Overall, you took a HLM template and then made it weird. Why not just do HLM with your preferred variations?

I'm going through some shoulder/arm pain which benching aggravates and OHP makes better.

Relevant injury history: left shoulder and upper arms all messed up from LBBS and possibly benching

If low bar squats and benching are painful, or mess your shit up, or both, why are you still doing them? (I'm not saying there aren't reasons for this, for example, "I'm a powerlifter and have judged the injury/pain is worth the competitive success." But you should have a reason. Pointlessly doing things you know will hurt and cause injury is stupid.)

[timelinex]

A few questions, not because I know anything, but just to start a conversation:

Why program "Nose OHP"? Why not just press?

I figured doing full on Press 2x a week is too much stress. The nose OHP is a variation to the Press, just as CG bench would be for bench.

Why are you front squatting 10s? Seems insane.

I have never done or dealt with front squats before. I came to this number based on a few routines I looked at. But I might be way off. Exactly why I'm posting here. What's more reasonable. 5s? 7s?

Why do squats go HML instead of HLM?

Good Catch. Need to change this. It was remnants of me copying The Bridges layout.

Why are you using high bar paused squats? Assuming low bar is your "competition lift," this is highly non-specific. What's wrong with regular 2 count pause squats (low bar)?

LBBS done more than 1x a week starts effecting my shoulder/arm too much.

Why not deadlift on Friday instead of Wednesday to give you time to recover from the heavy squat session?

I wanted to give the weekend recovery to RDL's. Since one of the things I'm pushing with them is stretching out the hamstrings, They reallycause soreness. I'm guessing for absolute strength, it would be best to do DL on Friday. But since I also wantto stretch myself out, I'm doing RDL's and pushing them as far as I can height wise.

WTF is "volume accumulation"? I'm assuming this is some two-factor stress model thing. If so, why would you intentionally accumulate lasting fatigue?

What I am referring to is what Mike Israetel talks about in his book. Going from MEV (Minimum effective volume) to MRV (Maximum Recoverable Volume) throughout a cycle. I know not every single person prescribes to this. But logically it seems sound and it is something that is prescribed in most respected volume routines. Another way to look at it is starting from low stress, and then raising it every week until you reach a point that you can't recover anymore and deload.

Overall, you took a HLM template and then made it weird. Why not just do HLM with your preferred variations?

I think I COULD. But then at it's core it would just become an extension of the Novice LP and grinding. To not grind I would have to add something like an RPE feature and add more volume to account for the lower intensity. Then it would go back to only being driven by rising intensity. Which is fine. But if I am cutting, it is my understanding that focusing on hypertrophy will lead to the best muscle retention. For hypertrophy to be the focus, the cycle would have to actually be guided more by rising volume. Any now we have arrived at my program

I'm just a guy with too much book knowledge and not enough real world experience. So thats why I'm here! I've read and watched way too much for my own good. Everything is just swirling around in my head and I'm making the best of it haha

If low bar squats and benching are painful, or mess your shit up, or both, why are you still doing them? (I'm not saying there aren't reasons for this, for example, "I'm a powerlifter and have judged the injury/pain is worth the competitive success." But you should have a reason. Pointlessly doing things you know will hurt and cause injury is stupid.)

I'll try to be as honest as possible.

The short of it? Likely it's because I'm a stubborn fool.

The long of it?
For squats:
1. I squat more weight doing low bar (duh)
2. The movement itself feels better
3. LBBS doesn't bother anything else at all. High bar bothers my knees. Not terribly so. But I had more knee pain with it than with low bar.
4. I keep thinking I will figure out a way to make it work (better thoracic extension, better grip, etc). In my defense, it seems like I'm inching closer. Just not there yet.

For benching:
1. It's the best compound to do to hit the chest. CG and Incline hurt me just as much.
2. It's by far the strongest lift I have so it's a confidence booster
3. I'm relatively sure that it's not causing the issue, but it's just effected by it and makes things worse once I get the issue. But I can't be positive.


Thanks for your reply man. I really appreciate it. It's exactly what I am looking for to start analyzing what I'm doing wrong and improving.

[PatrickDB]

Tagging @Hanley to check my work here. I'm just going to spout off some nonsense for the sake of getting this thread going.

Why program "Nose OHP"? Why not just press?

I figured doing full on Press 2x a week is too much stress. The nose OHP is a variation to the Press, just as CG bench would be for bench.

You can manage stress by using lower intensities and/or less volume. If you want to improve a lift, often the best thing you can do is ... more of that lift.

One major reason variations are often programmed is to help with technique issues or weak points. For example, Mike T likes pin squats because they help prevent "good morning squats" and strength in the weakest part of the lift (the bottom).

Here I don't see the point, since the weakest part of a OHP is at the bottom (I think?). I checked "The Bridge" to see if Jordan programs them and I'm missing something, but he doesn't. I also didn't see any of these in Jordan's strengthlifting contest training footage (though I did catch some paused presses, but I think he was just experimenting). The bulk of his press training seemed to be vanilla presses. I don't see a good reason not to imitate that. Specificity is king, after all.

Why are you front squatting 10s? Seems insane.

I have never done or dealt with front squats before. I came to this number based on a few routines I looked at. But I might be way off. Exactly why I'm posting here. What's more reasonable. 5s? 7s?

The limiting factor for longer sets will be the muscular endurance in the your upper back (the ability to hold the bar in the front rack position), not your leg strength. One idea would be to split the volume into 5s or 4s using the same intensity you have planned. See the discussion in this thread for why that's a good idea:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=882

Why do squats go HML instead of HLM?

Good Catch. Need to change this. It was remnants of me copying The Bridges layout.

Ok, sounds good.

Why are you using high bar paused squats? Assuming low bar is your "competition lift," this is highly non-specific. What's wrong with regular 2 count pause squats (low bar)?

LBBS done more than 1x a week starts effecting my shoulder/arm too much.

Post a video in the technique forum here ASAP. Hopefully this can be fixed with technique changes (grip width, thumb over/under).

The reasoning I've heard for programming pause squats is typically to reduce the "chest fall" coming out of the hole in a low bar squat. But if you aren't low bar pause squatting, you won't get that benefit. So programming high bar pause squats doesn't make sense to me.

Perhaps just high bar (without a pause) instead?

Why not deadlift on Friday instead of Wednesday to give you time to recover from the heavy squat session?

I wanted to give the weekend recovery to RDL's. Since one of the things I'm pushing with them is stretching out the hamstrings, They reallycause soreness. I'm guessing for absolute strength, it would be best to do DL on Friday. But since I also wantto stretch myself out, I'm doing RDL's and pushing them as far as I can height wise.

On one hand, this is superficially a good reason (placing the most stressful exercise before two days of recovery). On the other, I'm guessing you're doing this because in the back of your mind you still want to deadlift conventional with a flat back and you're praying that if you do enough RDLs you'll be able to.

This isn't totally insane, but by your own admission you've been doing RDLs for a while now and haven't been able to pull flat backed. Unless you need the RDLs to maintain flexibility for squats and sumo pulling, why not consider something more specific, like a sumo block or deficit pull (or just more regular sumo)?

WTF is "volume accumulation"? I'm assuming this is some two-factor stress model thing. If so, why would you intentionally accumulate lasting fatigue?

What I am referring to is what Mike Israetel talks about in his book. Going from MEV (Minimum effective volume) to MRV (Maximum Recoverable Volume) throughout a cycle. I know not every single person prescribes to this. But logically it seems sound and it is something that is prescribed in most respected volume routines. Another way to look at it is starting from low stress, and then raising it every week until you reach a point that you can't recover anymore and deload.

Why not just do "MRV" every week? If you have some idea what your "MRV" is, this seems better than sandbagging the first few weeks. There was some discussion about this in the thread I linked. Hanley can give 48-hour recoverable volume suggestions.

I guess what I really want to say is that week 4 is probably too much volume. You need progressive overload and volume is one way to achieve that, but I think you might be getting a little too progressive. Also, your deload looks too aggressive to me. The conventional advice is to keep intensity high and cut volume by some fraction, not drop to one set.

It's not a huge deal but my intuition is that there are better ways to periodize things if that's what you're after.

Overall, you took a HLM template and then made it weird. Why not just do HLM with your preferred variations?

I think I COULD. But then at it's core it would just become an extension of the Novice LP and grinding. To not grind I would have to add something like an RPE feature and add more volume to account for the lower intensity. Then it would go back to only being driven by rising intensity. Which is fine. But if I am cutting, it is my understanding that focusing on hypertrophy will lead to the best muscle retention. For hypertrophy to be the focus, the cycle would have to actually be guided more by rising volume. Any now we have arrived at my program

I guess I meant this more in terms of exercise order, not weight/volume progression. However, you can take a standard HLM template and use RPE and some periodization overlay without a problem.

If low bar squats and benching are painful, or mess your shit up, or both, why are you still doing them? (I'm not saying there aren't reasons for this, for example, "I'm a powerlifter and have judged the injury/pain is worth the competitive success." But you should have a reason. Pointlessly doing things you know will hurt and cause injury is stupid.)

I'll try to be as honest as possible.

The short of it? Likely it's because I'm a stubborn fool.

The long of it?
For squats:
1. I squat more weight doing low bar (duh)
2. The movement itself feels better
3. LBBS doesn't bother anything else at all. High bar bothers my knees. Not terribly so. But I had more knee pain with it than with low bar.
4. I keep thinking I will figure out a way to make it work (better thoracic extension, better grip, etc). In my defense, it seems like I'm inching closer. Just not there yet.

Post a technique video for low bar in the technique forum. We should hopefully be able to figure out a way to make it pain-free.

For benching:
1. It's the best compound to do to hit the chest. CG and Incline hurt me just as much.
2. It's by far the strongest lift I have so it's a confidence booster
3. I'm relatively sure that it's not causing the issue, but it's just effected by it and makes things worse once I get the issue. But I can't be positive.

Man, please don't do movements that cause pain. I'm not doctor, and this isn't medical advice, but it feels to me like that's counterproductive in the long run. Maybe OHP 3x/wk until you've got the low bar shoulder thing figured out? You can use Hanley's DUP template (in the sticky at the top of this forum). It's the one that goes hypertrophy, power, strength.

Does dumbbell bench hurt? If you put bench on Friday to give yourself three days between it and low bar, is that enough time for the inflammation to calm down that you can do it pain-free?

[timelinex]

You can manage stress by using lower intensities and/or less volume. If you want to improve a lift, often the best thing you can do is ... more of that lift.

One major reason variations are often programmed is to help with technique issues or weak points. For example, Mike T likes pin squats because they help prevent "good morning squats" and strength in the weakest part of the lift (the bottom).

Here I don't see the point, since the weakest part of a OHP is at the bottom (I think?). I checked "The Bridge" to see if Jordan programs them and I'm missing something, but he doesn't. I also didn't see any of these in Jordan's strengthlifting contest training footage (though I did catch some paused presses, but I think he was just experimenting). The bulk of his press training seemed to be vanilla presses. I don't see a good reason not to imitate that. Specificity is king, after all.

I'm not so sure. I don't get stuck at the bottom. I can get a bounce out of the bottom, so it's never usually an issue. I'm guessing this is more a personal thing, the way DL are for people. The pin press isn't directly in The Bridge, but thats because he is hitting benching twice and press once. I'm doing the opposite. So I have to find a variation on the press. I can do lighter weight as a "medium" day for the press, but I think a variation would be better as I can overload the part that I would get stuck on.

The limiting factor for longer sets will be the muscular endurance in the your upper back (the ability to hold the bar in the front rack position), not your leg strength. One idea would be to split the volume into 5s or 4s using the same intensity you have planned. See the discussion in this thread for why that's a good idea:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=882

I will definitely look into this. I will be doing front squats today for the first time to test things out and see what I can even do. So I will consider what you wrote, read the thread you linked and then change the reps accordingly.

The reasoning I've heard for programming pause squats is typically to reduce the "chest fall" coming out of the hole in a low bar squat. But if you aren't low bar pause squatting, you won't get that benefit. So programming high bar pause squats doesn't make sense to me.

Perhaps just high bar (without a pause) instead?

Well I'm not doing it for the sake of helping a chest fall. Which I imagine is a good reason to do them. I'm doing it for the sake of it allowing me to "go just as hard" but with a lighter weight. If I did just High Bar without a pause that would definitely be 1 heavy squat day and another almost just as heavy. On the other hand the pause requires me to use 50+ or so pounds less than my LBBS. In addition, when I did the paused squats on The Bridge, it definitely also helped me be cognizant of staying tight at the bottom. This applies to both LBBS and HBBS, even if I'm actually doing HBBS.
Pin squats were definitely better for this and I would be using those, but landing pins at my gym is a hit or miss. I just ordered equipment for a home gym, so when that comes in I will probably be doing pin squats on my next cycle.

On one hand, this is superficially a good reason (placing the most stressful exercise before two days of recovery). On the other, I'm guessing you're doing this because in the back of your mind you still want to deadlift conventional with a flat back and you're praying that if you do enough RDLs you'll be able to.

This isn't totally insane, but by your own admission you've been doing RDLs for a while now and haven't been able to pull flat backed. Unless you need the RDLs to maintain flexibility for squats and sumo pulling, why not consider something more specific, like a sumo block or deficit pull (or just more regular sumo)?

Yep. You got it haha. To be fair though I only did them as warmups and I actually stopped doing them at all in the last few months once it got me to 'ok' on conventional. I'm hoping an actual cycle of them will do me good. Even if I don't go back to conventional, it would be nice to be able to reach my toes on day.......

Why not just do "MRV" every week? If you have some idea what your "MRV" is, this seems better than sandbagging the first few weeks. There was some discussion about this in the thread I linked. Hanley can give 48-hour recoverable volume suggestions.

I guess what I really want to say is that week 4 is probably too much volume. You need progressive overload and volume is one way to achieve that, but I think you might be getting a little too progressive. Also, your deload looks too aggressive to me. The conventional advice is to keep intensity high and cut volume by some fraction, not drop to one set.

It's not a huge deal but my intuition is that there are better ways to periodize things if that's what you're after.

I won't be able to explain it better than Mike. He's got a whole book on it. As far as the progression and the deload goes, I am going exactly by his explanations in his book. If I start at my MRV, I wouldn't be able to apply progressive overload on volume and my cycle would be done.

I haven't read the article but skimming it over I think it's a good rough explanation: https://renaissanceperiodization.com/tr ... le-growth/

Post a technique video for low bar in the technique forum. We should hopefully be able to figure out a way to make it pain-free.

Unfortunately it's been beat to death. I've posted multiple threads on it on the SS forums. I've seen an SSC. I've played with grip every way.
I've tried so many things. The problem stems from shoulder/thoracic flexibility. I've improved it alot. I thought I figured it out finally but it came back. I've got one other idea to try with grip. Last time I tried thumbs around and farther grip I wasn't as flexible and didn't have as good of thoracic extension. So I'm gonna try that again next week.

The other thing is that the bars at my gym suck. The knurling is worn and not aggressive. I know the one time I used the Ohio Power Bar at an SSC's gym, it was amazing. Actually gripped my shirt and I think helped relieve alot of the pressure. I dont know though. I will see when I get mine in 3 weeks or so.

My last thread on the SS forums about it was https://startingstrength.com/resources/ ... -pain.html

Man, please don't do movements that cause pain. I'm not doctor, and this isn't medical advice, but it feels to me like that's counterproductive in the long run. Maybe OHP 3x/wk until you've got the low bar shoulder thing figured out? You can use Hanley's DUP template (in the sticky at the top of this forum). It's the one that goes hypertrophy, power, strength.

Does dumbbell bench hurt? If you put bench on Friday to give yourself three days between it and low bar, is that enough time for the inflammation to calm down that you can do it pain-free?

Last time I went to the gym I did sets of 8 of RPE 7 and that barely hurt. I think going going to lower weight helps. I know the lift off is part of what puts alot of stress on my shoulders. The equipment I'm getting includes the rogue monolift attachment, so that will help with liftoff. I'll have to see.

Overall I agree. If it keeps hurting me and I can't figure it out. I will change it.

Thanks again for the critique!

[PatrickDB]

Just some quick notes, trying to make my thoughts clear. The standard disclaimer (I don't actually know anything, this is purely to entertain myself) applies.

I'm not so sure. I don't get stuck at the bottom. I can get a bounce out of the bottom, so it's never usually an issue. I'm guessing this is more a personal thing, the way DL are for people. The pin press isn't directly in The Bridge, but thats because he is hitting benching twice and press once. I'm doing the opposite. So I have to find a variation on the press. I can do lighter weight as a "medium" day for the press, but I think a variation would be better as I can overload the part that I would get stuck on.

The Mike T perspective is that you get stuck at midrange on the bench because you can't generate enough velocity out of the weakest part of the lift (the bottom). That's why he prescribes paused benching. I think the same reasoning applies here.

So, if you want a press variation, i'd suggest a press with a 2 count pause at the bottom.

Well I'm not doing it for the sake of helping a chest fall. Which I imagine is a good reason to do them. I'm doing it for the sake of it allowing me to "go just as hard" but with a lighter weight. If I did just High Bar without a pause that would definitely be 1 heavy squat day and another almost just as heavy. On the other hand the pause requires me to use 50+ or so pounds less than my LBBS. In addition, when I did the paused squats on The Bridge, it definitely also helped me be cognizant of staying tight at the bottom. This applies to both LBBS and HBBS, even if I'm actually doing HBBS.

If your goal is just to manage intensity, I'm not sure highly non-specific variants are the best way to do this. I know this is detached first-principles reasoning, which I'm always a little skeptical of in highly applied domains like this, but I'd be inclined to do high bar without a pause at lower intensities/volume (and only because more low bar is not possible, due to your injury).

Yep. You got it haha. To be fair though I only did them as warmups and I actually stopped doing them at all in the last few months once it got me to 'ok' on conventional. I'm hoping an actual cycle of them will do me good. Even if I don't go back to conventional, it would be nice to be able to reach my toes on day.......

This seems fine. They'll probably help your deadlift, at least. I'm still inclined to put them on Monday and the deadlift on Friday so you're fresh for deadlifting, but you know your body better than I do.

I won't be able to explain it better than Mike. He's got a whole book on it. As far as the progression and the deload goes, I am going exactly by his explanations in his book. If I start at my MRV, I wouldn't be able to apply progressive overload on volume and my cycle would be done.

I haven't read the article but skimming it over I think it's a good rough explanation: https://renaissanceperiodization.com/tr ... le-growth/

Yeah, I've read all his stuff. I have a thing I'm kinda sure about and something I'm less sure about.

The kinda sure thing: your deload is way too aggressive. You dramatically decrease volume and intensity (back to week 1 weight). There are guidelines for writing deloads all over the web (Alan Thall has a nice youtube video). Perhaps look at those, or steal ideas from other programs. I don't think any of the "popular" powerlifting programs deload that much. I also think deloading every 4 weeks might be too frequent. You lose a lot of training time that way.

The less sure thing: your volume increases are too rapid. For example, from week 2 to 4, you go from 3 works sets on the back squat to 5. That's a 66% increase. In two weeks. If your goal is to follow the Mike I philosophy and dial in a "maximum recoverable volume," it seems like a better idea to add just little each week and slowly titrate up the volume.

You can kinda of see this in his example template:

Week 1: 12 sets

Week 2: 14 sets

Week 3: 16 sets

Week 4: 18 sets

Week 5: 20 sets

Week 6: 6 sets (deload)

Note the small increments of volume and less frequent deloading.

Unfortunately it's been beat to death. I've posted multiple threads on it on the SS forums. I've seen an SSC. I've played with grip every way.

Post a thread anyway. There are a lot of people here who have dealt with this.

I skimmed that thread. If it really is tendonitis you need to figure out something more productive to do than just training as normal and aggravating things. Again, posters here may have useful perspectives.

Last time I went to the gym I did sets of 8 of RPE 7 and that barely hurt. I think going going to lower weight helps. I know the lift off is part of what puts alot of stress on my shoulders. The equipment I'm getting includes the rogue monolift attachment, so that will help with liftoff. I'll have to see.

Overall I agree. If it keeps hurting me and I can't figure it out. I will change it.

Thanks again for the critique!

Sounds good. I'm always happy for a chance to spout my inane thoughts.

[cwd]

Re: front squats -- I hate them less for 3s than 5s. And to hell with 8s or 10s -- it's very hard to breathe between reps while holding the bar.

[Hanley]

I'm can only do a quick drive-by post to touch on some things:

- Regarding Israetel's periodization: I thought his book was very good, but I think the confirmation bias in support of his method of periodization was very strong. He glossed right over a possible explanation of "CNS fatigue", but then uses a CNC fatigue window of 2 weeks to structure programming. 2 weeks? Really? How solid is the science on that? Also, I think overreaching an entire block is stupid and dangerous. The idea of "accumulating fatigue" just needs to die (frankly, I thought it was dead).

- @timelinex: if you've got the funds, become a safety-squat-bar expert. I actually think it's an amazing variation (with fantastic transfer to all squat variations).

[timelinex]

The Mike T perspective is that you get stuck at midrange on the bench because you can't generate enough velocity out of the weakest part of the lift (the bottom). That's why he prescribes paused benching. I think the same reasoning applies here.

So, if you want a press variation, i'd suggest a press with a 2 count pause at the bottom.

If your goal is just to manage intensity, I'm not sure highly non-specific variants are the best way to do this. I know this is detached first-principles reasoning, which I'm always a little skeptical of in highly applied domains like this, but I'd be inclined to do high bar without a pause at lower intensities/volume (and only because more low bar is not possible, due to your injury).

I hear what you are saying, but I think ultimately it sounds like we are splitting hairs. With the assumption that your scenario is correct but I do a paused high bar versus a lighter high bar. What will be my consequence? I think primarily that I will have a higher rate of perceived exertion because paused squats suck more than non paused squats.

Yeah, I've read all his stuff. I have a thing I'm kinda sure about and something I'm less sure about.

The kinda sure thing: your deload is way too aggressive. You dramatically decrease volume and intensity (back to week 1 weight). There are guidelines for writing deloads all over the web (Alan Thall has a nice youtube video). Perhaps look at those, or steal ideas from other programs. I don't think any of the "popular" powerlifting programs deload that much. I also think deloading every 4 weeks might be too frequent. You lose a lot of training time that way.

It's straight from his book and his templates. you do half the sets of week one weights. Thats what I copied. You guys might be right that it's over doing it. I can always add more sets if it's too easy. I think it's this easy because the assumption is that you were just buried in fatigue from the last week.

The less sure thing: your volume increases are too rapid. For example, from week 2 to 4, you go from 3 works sets on the back squat to 5. That's a 66% increase. In two weeks. If your goal is to follow the Mike I philosophy and dial in a "maximum recoverable volume," it seems like a better idea to add just little each week and slowly titrate up the volume.

You can kinda of see this in his example template:

Week 1: 12 sets

Week 2: 14 sets

Week 3: 16 sets

Week 4: 18 sets

Week 5: 20 sets

Week 6: 6 sets (deload)

Note the small increments of volume and less frequent deloading.

You are probably right. My reasoning was that many intermediate templates have 5x5 heavy squats. So yes I am working up fast, but it's to a number that should be very reasonable.

But I think what I have to be more cognizant of is that maybe I shouldn't be raising the sets on ALL the exercises then. Maybe I need to raise the sets on heavy squats one week, and front squats the next, etc...

I guess thats something I have to consider. Opinions?

[/quote]

Post a thread anyway. There are a lot of people here who have dealt with this.

I skimmed that thread. If it really is tendonitis you need to figure out something more productive to do than just training as normal and aggravating things. Again, posters here may have useful perspectives.

Ortho I saw thought it was tendonitis, PT I saw thought it was tear in labrum based on some tests. I haven't had an MRI because it wouldn't change anything. ( I don't want to get surgery, at least not now).

Regardless, I'm gonna try my new grip thing and maybe I'll post it up on these forum if that doesn't work.

[timelinex]

I'm can only do a quick drive-by post to touch on some things:

- Regarding Israetel's periodization: I thought his book was very good, but I think the confirmation bias in support of his method of periodization was very strong. He glossed right over a possible explanation of "CNS fatigue", but then uses a CNC fatigue window of 2 weeks to structure programming. 2 weeks? Really? How solid is the science on that? Also, I think overreaching an entire block is stupid and dangerous. The idea of "accumulating fatigue" just needs to die (frankly, I thought it was dead).

- @timelinex: if you've got the funds, become a safety-squat-bar expert. I actually think it's an amazing variation (with fantastic transfer to all squat variations).

1. Maybe I used the wrong word. Does he use the word fatigue accumulation? I don't think so. I think his point is that volume is the main driver of hypertrophy, and for growth you need progressive overload. So you progressively overload volume. Even he says that you don't need to over reach and it should be left for the more advance programs. I'm not planning on it, but I know it might accidentally happen since I don't actually know where my MRV is. Only one way to find out....

I believe what you are saying is that instead of progressively overloading volume, lets just do enough volume to keep recovering in time for next week (or so?). I think overall thats what he is saying too , but he is saying we can maximize gains by taking advantage of being 'sensitized' to a certain amount.

I dunno. Obviously you have read his shit and you have way more experience than me. Thats why I'm on here asking these questions. At the end of the day though it sounds like a case of "depends on which guru you believe" and the actual difference is <5% doing it one way or the other?

2. I bought a SSB with my order So I will definitely be incorporating it into my routine. I just thought it was gonna be as a variation.

[PatrickDB]

Ortho I saw thought it was tendonitis, PT I saw thought it was tear in labrum based on some tests. I haven't had an MRI because it wouldn't change anything. ( I don't want to get surgery, at least not now).

It wouldn't change anything? You wouldn't manage tendonitis differently from a labrum tear? I'm no doctor, but this actually seems like a rather important thing to get figured out (with the caveat that MRI findings are not always clinically significant, etc.)

[Hanley]

2. I bought a SSB with my order So I will definitely be incorporating it into my routine. I just thought it was gonna be as a variation.....

Excellent. Honestly, you'd be perfectly okay using it as your main squat. In fact, I think

SSB + lots of pulls

is moar better than

LBBS and necessarily fewer pulls(lumbar fatigue) .

[timelinex]

Ortho I saw thought it was tendonitis, PT I saw thought it was tear in labrum based on some tests. I haven't had an MRI because it wouldn't change anything. ( I don't want to get surgery, at least not now).

It wouldn't change anything? You wouldn't manage tendonitis differently from a labrum tear? I'm no doctor, but this actually seems like a rather important thing to get figured out (with the caveat that MRI findings are not always clinically significant, etc.)

What are the different options?

If surgery is off the table, there is no effective difference in managing a labrum tear or tendonitis. You strengthen the shoulder to accommodate and you try not to piss it off too much. No difference.

[timelinex]

2. I bought a SSB with my order So I will definitely be incorporating it into my routine. I just thought it was gonna be as a variation.....

Excellent. Honestly, you'd be perfectly okay using it as your main squat. In fact, I think

SSB + lots of pulls

is moar better than

LBBS and necessarily fewer pulls(lumbar fatigue) .

Point taken.

Overall, without getting into the details, are you saying this program is terrible or that you think it might not be the most 100% efficient and what you would do but it will still likely work great.

[Hanley]

Overall, without getting into the details, are you saying this program is terrible or that you think it might not be the most 100% efficient and what you would do but it will still likely work great.

I think the basic approach is okay. I think abusing a chronic shoulder injury is a terrible idea.

[PatrickDB]

If surgery is off the table, there is no effective difference in managing a labrum tear or tendonitis. You strengthen the shoulder to accommodate and you try not to piss it off too much. No difference.

Really, there's no difference? I know nothing about these conditions other than their definitions, but it seems tendonitis at least has the potential to heal, and a (significant) labrum tear doesn't, and that would personally affect how I manage things. (For example, if I had tendonitis and what I was doing wasn't letting the shoulder heal, I'd do something different.) There's also the approach to treating tendonitis with eccentrics, and while I don't know if it works on this specific variety of tendonitis, it certainly won't work on a labrum tear.

[timelinex]

Point's taken.

I've been dealing with a shoulder issue for a year or so. At first I just wasn't flexible enough to get into the LBBS (or even properly thorw the press midfoot above me). I improved mobility for months and BOTH shoulders were sore all the time as I pushed their limits. Then everything was good for atleast a few weeks as I finally went over the major flexibility hurdles. But about 6 months ago my left shoulder/arm started giving me troubles.

I should not have let it get as bad as it did the first time. Thats for sure. I drank the Egyptian koolaid a little. I believed that its 'normal' and will get better.

But now I am not intentionally trying to abuse a chronic shoulder injury. I do not want it to continue happening. I just keep trying new things and hoping it will fix it. I let off the gas once it starts approaching "bad". But I don't want to give up till I've exhausted all options.

Stubborn? Yea. But I guess thats just my personality. If I wasn't so persistent I would probably not be overhead pressing or deadlifting (both gave troubles at first as well). So it's a give and take.

[cwd]

Tendonopathy can heal, over a period of months or years. This thread at StSt is good: https://startingstrength.com/resources/ ... ement.html.

I guess the only difference between managing tendinopathy and a labrum tear is that slow eccentric work might help with tendon symptoms but not the labrum.

[timelinex]

Tendonopathy can heal, over a period of months or years. This thread at StSt is good: https://startingstrength.com/resources/ ... ement.html.

I guess the only difference between managing tendinopathy and a labrum tear is that slow eccentric work might help with tendon symptoms but not the labrum.

But as far as I understand it:

1. Alot of these eccentric works are good for building shoulder strength anyways... Doing them is not a negative in my training even if it's a torn labrum
2. A positive torn labrum result isn't necessarily the cause of this pain and could be a completely separate issue. It could be an inconvenient coincidence and maybe I still have the tendinopathy and thats what is really causing the pain?

So that leads me to believe that regardless of which it is, the best coarse of action is to continue doing things like pullups, shoulder disconnects, and getting the shoulder overall strong with pressing. While also minimizing how much I piss it off.

For example, all else being equal, a torn labrum does not preclude benching or low back squating (with sufficient mobility and proper form). Only if they cause pain. Which is the same for serious teninopathy. Which is what I am trying to figure out how to do.