Experiments in High-Volume, Low-Fatigue Bench Programming (more "Montana Method" nonsense)

[quikky]

I ran MM with 5x4 and 5x3 +5% DLs alternating every week + 3x8-10 RDLs instead of SGDLs. Worked very well for me.

What sort of load did you use on the RDL's?

About 55-60% of DL 1RM.

[cole]

Like in the last 3 sets you have increasing velocity of the first 3-4 reps, then a BIG drop in speed similar to the penultimate-last rep drop. This looks to me like the funky velocity-rep relation toward the end is fatigue-induced recruitment weirdness, that make sense to you?

Yeah, I don't know. It gets really weird.

If I wanted to get really fussy, I probably should have stopped after the first squirrely set.

Some ex phys folks working at Cern just released some very compelling research captured in the infographic below (Apparently forum-member, @cwd, actually knows one of the researchers...pretty cool). In those final sets, I was probably in the high-fatigue/middling-stimulus region. And that's with sets at RPE 7ish.

How does one interpret this? Is where stimulation and stress intersect the sweet spot? Looks like 4 reps@60-70%?

[Hanley]

How does one interpret this?

Interpret what...the graph? Or my bar speeds?

Looks like 4 reps@60-70%?

I don't think that's enough work in a single set...probably more like 6-8 reps with 15RM (65ish% for most folks) and 4-6 reps with 12RM/70ish% In practice that's the rep range I personally use in my own lifting.

[perman]

I don't think that's enough work in a single set...probably more like 6-8 reps with 15RM (65ish% for most folks) and 4-6 reps with 12RM/70ish% In practice that's the rep range I personally use in my own lifting.

Absent a bar speed tracker, how would you determine such personalized parameters for a person?

Edit: I mean, should almost evey lifter train at 4-6 of 12RM? How would you know if 3s or 7s at that weight suited you?

[Hanley]

I don't think that's enough work in a single set...probably more like 6-8 reps with 15RM (65ish% for most folks) and 4-6 reps with 12RM/70ish% In practice that's the rep range I personally use in my own lifting.

Absent a bar speed tracker, how would you determine such personalized parameters for a person?

Have any interest in performing a 12-15RM in the near future and posting a video?

I think I'd simply look for a shift in rep-quality or bar speed...basically an imperfect and crude proxy for fatigue in [hand wave] the fiber of your largest MUs in the prime movers.

[perman]

I don't think that's enough work in a single set...probably more like 6-8 reps with 15RM (65ish% for most folks) and 4-6 reps with 12RM/70ish% In practice that's the rep range I personally use in my own lifting.

Absent a bar speed tracker, how would you determine such personalized parameters for a person?

Have any interest in performing a 12-15RM in the near future and posting a video?

I think I'd simply look for a shift in rep-quality or bar speed...basically an imperfect and crude proxy for fatigue in [hand wave] the fiber of your largest MUs in the prime movers.

I'll do that.

Namaste.

EDIT: Would a session with 1@7-8 to estimate 1RM followed by an AMRAP at 70% of work after a break work?

[Hanley]

I don't think that's enough work in a single set...probably more like 6-8 reps with 15RM (65ish% for most folks) and 4-6 reps with 12RM/70ish% In practice that's the rep range I personally use in my own lifting.

Absent a bar speed tracker, how would you determine such personalized parameters for a person?

Have any interest in performing a 12-15RM in the near future and posting a video?

I think I'd simply look for a shift in rep-quality or bar speed...basically an imperfect and crude proxy for fatigue in [hand wave] the fiber of your largest MUs in the prime movers.

I'll do that.

Namaste.

EDIT: Would a session with 1@7-8 to estimate 1RM followed by an AMRAP at 70% of work after a break work?

Yup. I suppose the single @7-8 could pre-fatigue you....but meh...I don't think it'll fuck anything up.

[Allentown]

Have any interest in performing a 12-15RM in the near future and posting a video?

Do people not do these at the end of every 5x11 session?

[Kregna]

How would one transition from this into an overhead press focus?

I guess you would want to keep bench volume high as not to detrain / lose size in the benching muscles (with OHP widely accepted to be less of a mass builder).

Maybe press heavy 1-3s and keep HVLF bench volume similar (essentially replacing the heavy bench day)?

Although Hanley, you've said best to do something very different after this programme for bench. Maybe db bench volume? Although then you lose the barbell specificity for OHP...

[Hanley]

How would one transition from this into an overhead press focus?

I guess you would want to keep bench volume high as not to detrain / lose size in the benching muscles (with OHP widely accepted to be less of a mass builder).

Maybe press heavy 1-3s and keep HVLF bench volume similar (essentially replacing the heavy bench day)?

Although Hanley, you've said best to do something very different after this programme for bench. Maybe db bench volume? Although then you lose the barbell specificity for OHP...

Well, what do you mean by "press focus"? Like...test a 1RM in 2-3 months? Or just get bigger/general-hypertrophy with a bias toward overhead press for variety's sake (a perfectly legit choice)?

I would approach these press-focus goals quite differently.

[Kregna]

How would one transition from this into an overhead press focus?

I guess you would want to keep bench volume high as not to detrain / lose size in the benching muscles (with OHP widely accepted to be less of a mass builder).

Maybe press heavy 1-3s and keep HVLF bench volume similar (essentially replacing the heavy bench day)?

Although Hanley, you've said best to do something very different after this programme for bench. Maybe db bench volume? Although then you lose the barbell specificity for OHP...

Well, what do you mean by "press focus"? Like...test a 1RM in 2-3 months? Or just get bigger/general-hypertrophy with a bias toward overhead press for variety's sake (a perfectly legit choice)?

I would approach these press-focus goals quite differently.

I'm thinking the former (building up to a 1rm press)

[Hanley]

How would one transition from this into an overhead press focus?

I guess you would want to keep bench volume high as not to detrain / lose size in the benching muscles (with OHP widely accepted to be less of a mass builder).

Maybe press heavy 1-3s and keep HVLF bench volume similar (essentially replacing the heavy bench day)?

Although Hanley, you've said best to do something very different after this programme for bench. Maybe db bench volume? Although then you lose the barbell specificity for OHP...

Well, what do you mean by "press focus"? Like...test a 1RM in 2-3 months? Or just get bigger/general-hypertrophy with a bias toward overhead press for variety's sake (a perfectly legit choice)?

I would approach these press-focus goals quite differently.

I'm thinking the former (building up to a 1rm press)

If your schedule can swing it...I'd aim for 4 weekly overhead press sessions. Also, I'd do 2-3 or 3 lowish-fatigue (not heavy) pec/bench slots. Whatever you want...those slots are primarily to maintain titty gains.

To start...maybe
Mon: 4x4 with 8rm/80% load
Tues: 10 minute density block with 10-12RM/70-72% load
Wed: no press
Thurs: progress 4x4 by a kg
Fri: repeat Tues for 10 mins (bump by 2-3kg when you hit 30 reps in 10 mins)

Personally, I'd probably choose from cable flies, DB bench, pullovers, and/or incline bench for the pec work.

^ run this 'til you can't, then get fancier.

[perman]

I don't think that's enough work in a single set...probably more like 6-8 reps with 15RM (65ish% for most folks) and 4-6 reps with 12RM/70ish% In practice that's the rep range I personally use in my own lifting.

Absent a bar speed tracker, how would you determine such personalized parameters for a person?

Have any interest in performing a 12-15RM in the near future and posting a video?

I think I'd simply look for a shift in rep-quality or bar speed...basically an imperfect and crude proxy for fatigue in [hand wave] the fiber of your largest MUs in the prime movers.

I'll do that.

Namaste.

EDIT: Would a session with 1@7-8 to estimate 1RM followed by an AMRAP at 70% of work after a break work?

Yup. I suppose the single @7-8 could pre-fatigue you....but meh...I don't think it'll fuck anything up.

13RM @9.5 and 72.5 kg.


Did 97,5 kg paused @ 9 or 9.5 two days prior to this for a e1RM of 100-102 kg, though I have done 110 prior to my 2-3 kg cut down to 85, so I may just be inefficient at singles now. If not, 72,5 % is 13RM territory for me...

[olekto]

13RM @9.5 and 72.5 kg.


Did 97,5 kg paused @ 9 or 9.5 two days prior to this for a e1RM of 100-102 kg, though I have done 110 prior to my 2-3 kg cut down to 85, so I may just be inefficient at singles now. If not, 72,5 % is 13RM territory for me...

Would this be at MUDO at Ulsrud by any chance? It looks familiar to me...

[perman]

13RM @9.5 and 72.5 kg.


Did 97,5 kg paused @ 9 or 9.5 two days prior to this for a e1RM of 100-102 kg, though I have done 110 prior to my 2-3 kg cut down to 85, so I may just be inefficient at singles now. If not, 72,5 % is 13RM territory for me...

Would this be at MUDO at Ulsrud by any chance? It looks familiar to me...

Hehe, ja. Trener du der el? Er du duden med Wallander-belte el?

[Hanley]

I don't think that's enough work in a single set...probably more like 6-8 reps with 15RM (65ish% for most folks) and 4-6 reps with 12RM/70ish% In practice that's the rep range I personally use in my own lifting.

Absent a bar speed tracker, how would you determine such personalized parameters for a person?

Have any interest in performing a 12-15RM in the near future and posting a video?

I think I'd simply look for a shift in rep-quality or bar speed...basically an imperfect and crude proxy for fatigue in [hand wave] the fiber of your largest MUs in the prime movers.

I'll do that.

Namaste.

EDIT: Would a session with 1@7-8 to estimate 1RM followed by an AMRAP at 70% of work after a break work?

Yup. I suppose the single @7-8 could pre-fatigue you....but meh...I don't think it'll fuck anything up.

13RM @9.5 and 72.5 kg.


Did 97,5 kg paused @ 9 or 9.5 two days prior to this for a e1RM of 100-102 kg, though I have done 110 prior to my 2-3 kg cut down to 85, so I may just be inefficient at singles now. If not, 72,5 % is 13RM territory for me...

Looks like reps 1-8 all kinda stay around the same concentric speed...then there's a little dip in speed from 8-9...and a cliff between reps 9 and 10. I had to count frames to be sure about the dip between reps 8 and 9 was legit (it seems to be).

With this relative intensity, I'd stick with sets of 6-8 for you. A couple of session-format options pop into mind:

(I'm assuming a 48-72 hour max recoverable volume of about 40 reps [assuming sets in RPE 5-7 zone])

1) Super Low Fuss Option: 5 sets of 8 or 6 sets of 7.
2) Slightly Fussier: 8,8,8,6,6,6
3) Autoregulated Fussery: Sets of 8 until RPE 6-7; then sets of 6 until RPE 6-7ish

You absolutely cannot do sets with a prime number of reps using a prime-number-rep-PR intensity. Thus, no sets of 7.

Edit: amrap with ~82.5-85kg in a week or two. Extrapolating to that load, my guess is that sets of 3-4 would be good, but probably best to check.

So....my guess
15RM = sets of 8-10
12RM = sets of 6-8
10RM = Fahves
8RM = sets of 3-4

Heavier than 8RM...probably just singles and doubles.

^ this ends up looking like a very traditional rep range recommendation...but you actually seem to be quite fatigue resistant, so this is at the very high end of what I usually use for reps-per-set

[perman]

Damn, thanks a lot.

I can experiment with DUP + variants in my programming for years with this information. Feel like I should pay you something for the sheer utility of that...

[olekto]

Hehe, ja. Trener du der el? Er du duden med Wallander-belte el?

Trener der innimellom. I ferier og når jeg har hjemmekontor, ellers er jeg på Blindern. Har et Best-belte, ikke noe fancy som Wallander.

[Hanley]

Damn, thanks a lot.

Yeah, man.

the sheer utility of that...

Well...it's gotta work first. But I'm pretty confident it will.

[perman]

but you actually seem to be quite fatigue resistant, so this is at the very high end of what I usually use for reps-per-set

Does fatigue resistant mean I have a bunch of type 1 muscle fibers, am more naturally gifted at endurance, have made the wrong life choice in lifting, and will be doomed to suffer the consequences of that unless i switch training goals?

It would be nice to have an excuse for my poverty bench. I guess I need to go get a muscle biopsy and have the results handy any time a decent bencher shows up in the gym...